Chaired by Melissa Murdock (Senior Programme Manager at Roundhouse), panellists include Max Chase, (Marketing Assistant at National Theatre, Scotland), Jolie Hockings (Curator, Schools and Young People at The Photography Gallery), and Emma Yap (Script Editor at Mammoth).
Melissa Murdoch
Good evening. I’m Melissa, welcome to our first Breaking In event which is run by the Education and Skills segment of the Creative Industries Federation. I’ll be your host for the evening. A bit about the event before we get going and I introduce you to the amazing panellists you can see before you. This event has been designed to help support a wide range of young people, from those interested in freelancing who may be unsure of how to begin, to those looking at permanent positions within an organisation. Every two months, the Breaking In team will bring together a panel of creative workers, like the ones you can see in front of you, to find out the reality of a career within the creative industries. Then following on from the panel, a select number of students will be offered the opportunity to attend a Breaking In clinic session with one of our speakers where they have twenty minutes to ask more detailed questions and advice, to one-to-ones.
Let’s get started with this panel conversation, which will last just over thirty minutes, then we’ll have a Q&A, so, as you’re thinking about questions, write them down and we’ll get to them at the end, and then there’ll be a short break, and then we’ll start with the one-to-one clinic. Please do keep writing your name, what you do and why you’re here in the chat, it’ll help me figure my way through this evening.
As I mentioned, my name is Melissa Murdock. I’m a senior program manager at the Roundhouse and I run programs for entrepreneurs and freelancers. Do check out what we do, we do lots of talks, we do workshops, and we have an accelerated program and we’re opening a co -working space for entrepreneurs and freelancers in creative industries in the next year, so you can check that out. And like most creatives, I don’t just do one thing, I’m also the co-host of the Imposters Club podcast, which is all about helping you navigate impostor syndrome and self-doubt. So, if you’ve ever had that negative voice in your head telling you aren’t good enough, come over to the Imposters Club and we’ll clear that right up. Our fourth season is a post-pandemic survival guide to help you with self-doubt and it’s out today. So, plug, plug, plug!
Today we are joined by an amazing panel, we’ve got Emma Yap, who’s a script editor for Mammoth Films, Max Chase, a marketing assistant at National Theatre Scotland, and Jolie Hockings. Curator of Schools and Young People at The Photographer’s Gallery. I think it’s best to hear a little bit more about what you do from the panel, so that they can describe in a bit more detail about what those words I just said are, because that’s one of the top things about working in the industry. We all have different job titles, and they mean different things in different places. Over to you, Max, do you want to tell us a bit about what a marketing assistant at the National Theatre Scotland does?
Max Chase
Hi Melissa. So, working in the marketing team at National Theatre Scotland involves a lot of different strands. Some of it is very straightforward stuff, things you might see in terms of helping to create posters and print that goes out to venues, liaising with those venues, creating all of the marketing materials that go out to our customers – whether that’s posters, emails, websites, there’s a lot of work with data, there’s a lot of work with writing copy for shows, and working collaboratively with artists to make sure that we’re best representing their shows, there is audience development work. It’s a pretty varied role, I would say, working across a lot of different platforms.
Melissa Murdoch
Great. Thank you, Max. I saw a few market people that are interested in marketing in the chat earlier, so think of your questions for Max for later. Over to you, Emma, would you like to tell us a bit more about what a script editor does?
Emma Yap
Hi, everyone. I’m a script editor at Mammoth and the company I work for makes TV dramas. We most recently made a show called ‘The Serpent’ which was in the BBC. My job is split into two sections, the first section is development and that’s working with writers to develop scripts for TV drama which we then take to broadcasters to pitch. My job is analysing those scripts, giving notes to the writer, engaging conversations with the writer and trying to get that script as good as it can be. So, it’s very closely working with the writer. The second part of my job is working in production. When a TV show’s actually filming, I’m on set talking to the writer and every time they have to make a change to the script, I feed that change through to the rest of the production team and make sure that everyone’s on the same page and everyone’s looking at the same script.
Melissa Murdoch
Thanks, Emma. You’ve already given me insight, I didn’t know that’s how it worked, I’m fascinated. So, if you guys don’t come up with questions later, I’m going to have some. Thanks, Emma. Over to you Jolie, tell us a bit more about your role.
Jolie Hockings
It is great, I feel like they we’ve got some really varied perspectives here, which is really great. My job title is Curator to Schools and Young People at The Photographer’s Gallery. I was talking to people in the office earlier about my role and I’m not really a curator, I would say my role is actually more of a producer. I organise lots of workshops, events and talks for young people, engaging them with photography and the wider conversations around that. I do a lot of work with specific artists or freelancers, or creatives to produce content that could be a workshop or a talk or it could also be something that then sits online. It’s all about bringing people into the gallery but also engaging with people online. Anything youth related at the gallery, that’s my role, but there is a lot of admin and Excel spreadsheets and emails as well. There is fun stuff like doing creative workshops, but there’s a lot of behind-the-scenes-admin that I’m sure all of our jobs entail.
Melissa Murdoch
I was about to say Jolie – put your hand up if you have a lot of admin in your job. Let’s start by going back and discussing what your route into the creative industries was. It’d be great to hear from each of you about what your path was. Did you study a creative subject like many of the people that are here in the chat today? Or did you step straight into a creative career or was there a different path? Emma let’s start with you.
Emma Yap
My path into the creative industry was quite unusual. I didn’t study a creative subject at university, I studied economics. My first job was actually investment banking, and I didn’t go to the theatre to watch a play until I was in my twenties. I had no idea that I wanted to work in the creative industries. My first job that was in the creative industries was in a film sales company and it wasn’t really something I was passionate about. I wanted to do something creative, but I was told that, ‘Oh, you’re selling films, and you still get to interact with scripts, it’s still creative to some extent,’ so, I spent a couple of years working in the commercial side of the creative industries, working in sales acquisitions and I worked at Universal Studios. I realised that although I was technically working in a creative industry, my actual job wasn’t very creative. And it was only in 2018, that I left Universal, and I went to work for a small production company as a development executive, and I’d say that was my first proper creative job within the creative industries. I think it’s important to recognise that just because you’re working in a creative industry, it doesn’t mean that your job itself will be what you want it to be, and – I won’t take up much more time – I want to say that when you’re thinking about how to get your foot in the door, you have to think is this particular job what you want to do because there are a lot of boring jobs in the creative industries, and you have to think what is it that suits your character? What do you actually want to do individually? And don’t feel like you have to go for the first job that’s offered to you.
Melissa Murdoch
I think that’s really interesting, Emma, because there’s a lot of pressure to jump in and do something that you’re not happy to do and it’s really important to hear that there are lots of routes into the creative industries, and you really can carve out your own path. We’ll discuss a little bit later on about finding a career that aligns with your values, because that’s something that’s really important. Max over to you, what was your path like?
Max Chase
Unlike Emma, I’ve been involved in creative work for quite a while. Most particularly, the thing that set me on this path was during university, I was part of the theatre society in Glasgow, and did writing and directing and totally completely fell in love with that as a thing. I couldn’t afford to stay in Glasgow once my uni degree was done so I went home for six months, wasn’t getting any jobs anywhere and then, on my mum’s recommendation – which I would say to anyone, listen to your mum because they will set you right – But on my mum’s recommendation I wrote out to all the theatres in Scotland – I was keen to stay in Scotland because it’s more of the industry that I’m familiar with – for any marketing roles or publicity roles or for advice around that or what people recommended or even to sit down and have a conversation. I had one person at Dundee Rep Theatre write back to me and we then sat down had a conversation. They then in turn got back to me a few weeks later, they had something that they needed a person for, and it all progressed from there. I then went back to uni in 2017 and did a degree in Theatre Practice so it was a little bit more aligned with what I wanted to do. Then I got my job at NTS in that summer while I was still finishing my Masters. It’s been this joint thing alongside working as a writer and a director in theatre and thinking, well, if it’s the National Theatre of Scotland it feels like the right place to be in the industry. But I think it’s really interesting what Emma was saying because, actually, being in the marketing department is not really a creative role, it’s quite distant from that in a lot of ways which sometimes is a source of frustration. There’s a lot of things that I’ve discovered about the creative industries, how it works, things that are needed to make it happen that I don’t think I was aware of before.
Melissa Murdoch
Thank you, Max – and the top tip there is listen to your mum. You did touch on something about the breadth of roles in the creative industries and really understanding that your path isn’t necessarily linear. I actually came straight out of uni and had a theatre company for five years because that’s what I wanted and then I changed what I wanted out of life changed and I was able to flip my transferable skills from being able to run my own theatre company knowing how to produce work and almost using that to then step into an organisation and work from that site. I think it’s really important to think that what you pick now isn’t necessarily where you need to be in ten years and actually, it can be an ongoing journey. Over to you Jolie, how about you?
Jolie Hockings
I’m actually touching on what Emma said that not all roles are creative. When I was doing A-Levels, I realised I really liked art, but I wasn’t very good at it, or I wasn’t very good at being creative on demand. It wasn’t my thing, wasn’t my bag but I really liked being around it. You’ve mentioned values briefly, but I feel I had quite a lot of values that aligned with those creative subjects. I knew I wanted to work within it, but I knew that I didn’t want to have the pressure of producing stuff or actually being the maker. I found a role where I was facilitating other people being creative, but I wasn’t actually the one that was having to do that. That was the moment for me, I thought maybe I could go into something where I’m more on the planning side of things. I then did a module at university where we collaborated with the sixth form to create a photography workshop for the sixth form class, and it was unrelated to my degree, I did art history, but it was a light bulb moment. From then on, I engaged in built experiences that sent me on a path around photography and facilitation.
Melissa Murdoch
Great, thank you. There’s often quite a catch twenty-two with the creative industries. You need experience to get a job, but how do you get experience without a job? One of the conversations that we haven’t heard enough, though we’ve started touching on here, is about transferrable skills and understanding how all the different things you do are experience and are transferable into different ideas.
I could see almost a little chat going on between me, Emma and Faye in the chat here. Emma, you rightly said that you don’t necessarily have to do this degree to do this job, which often is taught to us. With that in mind, what advice would you give to young people with little experience? Let’s start with you, Max.
Max Chase
It depends on what you want to do, but I would a hundred percent say try in any way that you can to find creative people around you even if you don’t necessarily know them that well. Connect up with those people and, this is maybe coming a little bit more from an artistic background, but if you want to write something and put on a play then do that on a very small scale, that’s totally fine. It doesn’t need to be perfect, it doesn’t need to be good. You getting that experience will help you learn a lot and it will also mean that when you come to the table, you actually have something there. There’s a lot of things that you can do very low budget, there’s obviously films that you can make using your phone. And allowing it to be bad, you don’t have to necessarily have a lot of money or funding to do it. But also, it’s worthwhile looking as well at funding for small projects which do exist out there – lots of different trusts, the big ones like Creative Scotland or Arts Council England, there are those little, small pots of money if you want to try and do something a little bit more professional. I suppose I would say try and do it and find other creative people, and don’t be afraid to start it and get it wrong.
Melissa Murdoch
Definitely, it’s this idea that we fear failure, but actually without failure, you don’t learn, and all those things lead to success. What advice would you give to young people with little experience, Jolie?
Jolie Hockings
It’s a really good question and it is one of those things that people say, that they’re looking for people with experience – but then how do you get experience? We’ll then wrap the issues around people working for free and a lot of people not being in a privileged position to be able to work for free. It is a real issue, and Melissa, you mentioned a really good point that transferable skills are really key, every experience that you have even if it’s not necessarily connected to the specific job or career that you want, it’s all relevant and there’s all learnings that can be taken away from that. That’s the first thing I’d say but then also networking is really important, and we have the internet now which has its pros and cons, but it is a really brilliant way of reaching pretty much anyone and obviously there will be people that don’t reach back. But you can utilise that in a way that you can build that community, even if it’s putting the feelers out there, letting people know that you’re around, or you’re interested in something is a really good way of building a network that ultimately you could then get experience from that.
Melissa Murdoch
Amazing, thank you. And you’ve neatly led me on to the next question. From what I’ve heard from you all, you’ve all had eclectic careers, so it’d be interesting to know how do you find work now? Where do you look? What’s your route into finding work? Max, if you’d like to go ahead.
Max Chase
What Jolie was saying about networks is really important there and obviously, I’m lucky enough to be in a full-time arts position for my main job, which is a very privileged position to be in, there aren’t a lot of those out there. As Jolie was saying, the internet is a wonderful thing, it takes a bit of time and it takes a little bit of persistence, but there are all of these kinds of different organisations that, from a writing perspective, list up huge amounts of opportunities. A lot of them won’t be a good fit for you, sometimes you have to go on and do it and get used to it and get used to that daily work. I find that some of the easier places to find stuff, in Scotland anyway, is the Federation of Scottish Theatre for actual jobs, and in Creative Scotland Opportunities there’s a list of everything. And then there’s specific blogs and if you’re a writer, London Playwrights Blog is really good and there’s a huge amount of things out there, you have to spend some time doing the research to find the right fit for you.
Melissa Murdoch
Thank you, Max, did you say lemon? What was the writing one?
Max Chase
Sorry, London Playwrights Blog. It’s not just London opportunities, they do great roundups and things like that.
Melissa Murdoch
I’m being a good admin assistant here and writing some things into the chat and I added in the arts admin, E-Digest and Social Fix which is all about getting more diverse voices and faces in the club industries, so check that one out as well. I’m going to come on to networking in a little bit but it’s great keeping your ear to the ground and seeing what opportunities are out on these blogs, I agree. And those blogs are also really great for little pockets of funding. We all think that Arts Council England is the only place to get money but that’s also the hardest place to get money. Keeping an eye and checking out those kinds of newsletters is such a great idea. Thanks, Max. How do you find work, Emma?
Emma Yap
The TV industry is tricky because most jobs aren’t advertised, it’s all about word of mouth. Normally, even if you do have a job that’s advertised, they already know who they want for that job. It is very tricky. For me, personally, I’m lucky I’ve been in my position for since 2019 and I haven’t really had to look for anything recently. What I tend to do is to email friends that I have in the industry and ask, ‘Do you know anything?’ I’ll email people who I’ve met recently and say I’m looking. I may also contact a few recruitment agencies or a couple of TV recruitment agencies and that’s how I would do it. If you’re coming from a new background and you haven’t had a job before and you’re looking for some experience, I would probably look at a site like My First Job In Film which advertises internships. I don’t know if they’re still running, they were running when I was looking for a job ages ago. There’re also different networking groups, there’s a group called Lift, it’s for women in film, they have a Facebook group, and before COVID, they would meet every month and have drinks. You exchange details with someone in that group and then add them to the Facebook group. So sometimes they would advertise jobs there, it’s very much like those informal personal contacts that are really useful in TV and film.
Melissa Murdoch
Right, I’m going to whiz on to networking. I feel like that’s where we’re getting to here. There’s obviously applying for jobs, the classic way of seeing a job out there and seeing it recruited and applying for it and we’ll get on to interviews a little bit later, but the other thing is that awful phrase of it’s not what you know, it’s who you know, and networking is hard as it is, and now with online networking, it’s scary. It’d be interesting to know what each of your top tips are for securing and maintaining relationships because there’s one thing about going to a networking event and meeting people or reaching out to somebody, but how do you maintain a relationship when you don’t have anything to speak to that person about for five months? Or how do you even secure one in the first place? Jolie, we’ll start with you.
Jolie Hockings
The first thing, the initial thing, I think, is first impressions are quite important and it’s really important to be nice to everyone – unless they are a bad person. But people remember if you’re nice and nice to be around, and personable and you’re engaged, all of those things. The initial thing is to create a good first impression. Networking is one of those things where some people who are the most confident, who actually might not be the most talented, they can get far from being a bit pushy or being a bit confident. And it shows how it is really important to be able to sell yourself as a brand in a way even though I worked for an organisation to be able to say what you’re about and say it proud and being positive about it. It’s important to be nice. And then with maintenance, it’s a real fine line because often people who are maybe a bit more established are busy people who get a lot of emails, and you don’t want to be annoying or clogging people’s emails up with slightly empty emails or messages. If you are wanting to maintain a relationship, it would be a case of checking in when you do have something to say that is of relevance, or if you’ve got an event on, or you’re doing something specific, you can signpost them to it. I would be mindful that people’s time is tight. Also, another really important thing is if you are going to email someone make sure the subject line is clear about what you’re asking. I actually found out that when I was fourteen, I wanted to do work experience at Vogue. And I found my email from me to them, and the subject line was my name, which is actually quite confident, but also really irrelevant if people are getting tonnes of emails and then they see one that’s says Jolie Hockings – what does that mean? Be super clear, concise, and keep it brief, but on point.
Melissa Murdoch
Great, and you touched on something there about being specific. I hosted a panel on getting your voice out there and we had Kate Moross on the panel who’s an amazing graphic designer, and they were asked about how to reach out to somebody that you’re inspired by or going for coffee, and you’re much more likely to get somebody to spend time with you, if your question is really specific. If somebody wants to pick my brain, then I don’t know what they’re going to get out of it. I don’t know if I’m going to be helpful and it almost stresses me out. Whereas if I know that somebody wants to talk to me really specifically about how to get funding as an entrepreneur or how to diversify their income, this is my talent base. I know that I can help and also, I can probably do it in half an hour. Be really specific when you’re reaching out.
Jolie Hockings
One more thing, just off the back of that is that people want to know that you know who they are as well. If you’re reaching out to them for a coffee, they want to know that it’s them that you wanted to speak to. If you’re copying and pasting the same email to thirty people, they will be able to tell.
Melissa Murdoch
Yes, definitely, that’s a very good point. Emma, what’re your top tips for securing and maintaining relationships.
Emma Yap
Oh, it’s so difficult. I wish I knew the answer. I think maybe this will contradict what some other people might think about networking. I think it’s about being genuine and it’s about if you meet someone, and you genuinely feel like you have a connection, and you like them as a person, then I think, yes pursue a relationship with them. If you’ve met someone and you think there’s not much connection there, but they’re really senior, or they’re in a company that you really want to work for, but don’t really like them, I don’t think you should force it. So, my first thing would be about being genuine and following your passion. If you meet someone, and you genuinely feel you liked this person, and they’re not senior, they may not be useful to you, or they’re in a different part of the industry but can see them being a friend, then follow that instinct. That would be my top tip. I don’t know how useful it is. It’s following your instinct and not forcing anything.
Melissa Murdoch
And you’re right about being authentic and genuine because that’s the only way you can sell yourself. People can see through it and your passion comes out when you’re talking about something you love, or you believe in. It’s alright to have a niche or to have a passion or to have a story that you’re telling, because that’s what will make you stand out.
As I move on to Max, I’m reading and holding on to your questions for later, please do keep putting them in. Max, have you got anything to add? What’re your top tips for maintaining and securing relationships.
Max Chase
I feel like Emma and Jolie, they’ve nailed it in terms of anything I find useful. It’s something I really struggle with – networking – and it can be a really intimidating thing. It’s really important to remember that most people who you’re networking with, it’s not you versus a big collective of them, they are other people just like you. Almost everybody that I’ve met also hates networking. Like Emma said, if you try and be genuine about who you are, and what you’re interested in, and what you have to bring, and you listen to them, and what they have to bring, and try and find that connection, that’s going to be useful. That’s how you’re going to get the best result and the best connection. It’s okay to be selective, not in terms of who you speak to, you should try and speak to everyone and give everyone your time and be really up for that. But it’s okay you don’t need to maintain every network, some of them won’t be relevant to you, or they might be down the line, in which case, get in touch and be genuine and find out what they’ve been doing and acknowledge the fact that it’s been a while. You can enjoy it, just do it.
Melissa Murdoch
Well, thanks, Max, and something to add there that you touched on is about the fact of it being a two-way street, often we’ll go to a networking event and think, what can I get out of it, and you’ll notice the people with the best networks are the people that also introduce other people. If I say ‘Oh, so-and-so and needs to meet so-and-so because you’ve got a great connection,’ I’ll be known as a middleman, I’ll be known as the person that connects people. This is a tip that I got given by my boss, because I hate going to networking events. I actually think that she gave this to me when we had the Creative Industries Federation event at the Roundhouse, which was – you have to do three things: Find somebody that you can help, find somebody that can help you, and find somebody who you’d like to go out for coffee with. I like to think that takes the pressure off because it’s pretty chill. We’ve spoken a lot about reaching out to people that are maybe a step ahead of you, but also networks are very much about your own level and people on your level because you’re going to grow with them. Many people that do similar things to me in different organisations, for example, the reason why I was asked to do this panel is because someone at the Creative Industries Federation knew what I did and contacted me, I didn’t have to apply for this. Somebody said they knew about me, thinking about that as well. Go ahead, Jolie.
Jolie Hockings
Networking comes in all shapes and sizes, and we can be networking all the time – this could be networking. Whenever I think of networking, I think of people in a room moving around awkwardly, but networking is creating connections and creating connections that will help you be able to potentially collaborate with at some point. It’s an opportunity of meeting someone that might be interesting in an opportunity to network – the buzzword.
Melissa Murdoch
Definitely, so we can shake networking off, we’ve done it.
Let’s say there’s an organisation that you want to work with, or someone you’ve heard speak at an event, what is the best way to get in contact? We’ve touched on this. Have any of you reached out to a contact or company cold? And what’s your top tip? We’ve already heard about not having a good subject line being really specific. Emma, do you have anything else to add to that?
Emma Yap
In 2019, I had a period of three months where I was looking for my next job and I did reach out to a couple of companies cold. I think Jolie has said it all, but it’s making yourself look interesting in the email. It’s your passion coming through. For example, I would if I was reaching out to a company, and I’d be saying ‘I really liked this thing that you did recently,’ and trying to come across as authentic and genuine. Also, if you know someone personally at the company or if you know someone who knows someone that helps as well, you could say, ‘I actually met your script editor at an event yesterday and I was wondering whether you have something available,’ then that can make it a bit of a warmer contact which can be quite useful as well.
Melissa Murdoch
Thanks, Emma. I’m going to move on to interview tips. It’d be great if we could go around to each one of the panellists and you could give me your top one or two tips for surviving and thriving an interview. Matt, would you like to go first? I’m putting you on the spot.
Max Chase
Sure, as I said with networking and really worth remembering for pretty much everything that you feel nervous about – they are people on the other side of that. They’ve already invited you to interview so they know you enough and they’re interested enough to hear about you. They have a job that they want to fill with the best possible person who will fit with their team, and being nice, personable, expressing who you are, and being really honest and open and upfront is really, really important. The other thing that is hugely important though, is you really do have to do your homework. You really do have to do your prep, you do really have to read up about the organisation, spend that time and it’s one of those things where every interview where I’ve not done that, I’ve not gotten anything. Every interview where I have done that, I’ve had a lot more success. Sadly, no real substitute for doing it, so spending a week before properly getting to grips with them looking at their social media feeds, if it’s a marketing role, because you might have a question around that or understanding the mission of the organisation or understanding some of the key people. These are all things that you really have to do. Almost all organisations will have a website and you can read everything about them and get a sense of them and make sure you know about the projects that they’re doing, you know about their goals. Those are the things that will help you feel like a better fit for that organisation.
Melissa Murdoch
Amazing. That’s such a good point about doing your research because it means then you can ask good questions back to them. I always think if you’re working on organisation finding the annual review or the annual report for the organisation, it’s always on the website. Jolie over to you, top tips for interviews.
Jolie Hockings
Oh, they’re horrible. I don’t think they ever get easier to be honest. Max’s key points, they’re really important to prep, prep is key. Another thing I’d say is it’s alright to be nervous. That’s really natural. I’ve been on both sides of interviews now and if someone says, ‘Oh, I’m a bit nervous,’ that’s alright, it’s quite an intense situation. I wouldn’t continue to say it, but it’s okay to acknowledge that it’s a nerve-wracking situation. Somebody that mentored me a little bit a few years ago advised that I take in a notebook and it’s a bit of a game changer. I never thought about it before but taking a notebook and a pen, even if you write down the questions they’ve asked you, it’s a really good way of showing that you’re taking it seriously. It’s great if the question’s quite meaty or difficult, you can write it down. Or it gives you a bit more time to think about a bit more of a dynamic answer as at the same time doing something productive, and you can write some questions to ask at the end. Another really key thing, if you can, they’ll always ask you if you’ve got any questions, prepare some, even if it’s a really basic one such as, ‘What do you like about the organisation?’ Because it looks like you’ve really made the effort.
Melissa Murdoch
Really good point, I’m going to add those two questions that I recommend asking, ‘What do you think the biggest challenges are with this role?’ And ‘What are you looking for in this role / in this candidate?’ Emma over to you? What’re your top tips? How do we do well in an interview?
Emma Yap
It’s really tricky. I think trying to be as relaxed as possible is important and breathing. Also remembering that you’re not only there to be interviewed, ask yourself, do you want to work with this person who’s interviewing you? Do you want to work for this company? When I go for interviews now, and maybe it’s come with confidence and experience, but when I go for interviews, I always think, is this person someone I want to work with? Is this a nice person? Do they look happy? Do they look like they’re enjoying their role? What culture is this to work for? And you can always ask the question, then they’ll never tell you completely. I always feel like I get quite a lot from looking at the person. I sometimes ask if it’s a new company. In TV there’s a lot of new small companies that are sprouting up and a lot of them don’t really last very long. I ask them, ‘What’s your strategy? What are you? What differentiates you from other companies?’ And from there, I get a sense of how stable the company is, how much money do they really have, what role is this really, and reading in between the lines. I always see interviews as a chance for you to work out what the company is and what are you getting yourself into. I definitely don’t think it should be a case of you begging that person to give you that job. It’s about do you want to work for that company as well.
Melissa Murdoch
Definitely. There’re some great tips. We’ve only got a few more minutes left for questions. I want to do one more question and then we’ll do a bit of a Q&A. Start thinking about some questions for this amazing panel. Jolie touched on this before but in the creative industries, there’s sometimes a pressure to be a brand and that can obviously be good to get extra work, but it can also be an extra pressure, especially with social media. Do each of you consider yourself a brand? And why? Emma let’s start with you.
Emma Yap
This is an interesting question because if you’d asked me this question five years ago, I would probably have said yes, now the answer is no and I think the reason I have this issue with considering myself a brand is that I feel like if you think of yourself as a brand there’s a lot of pressure on you to think about how other people are perceiving you and to adjust yourself to fit into that perception. So, you don’t really think about what you want, that’s how I experience it anyway, and when I was early in my career, I thought, Okay, I have to come across as this person and I have to have experience in a big studio, and I have to get promoted. But then I never stopped and asked myself do I actually want to work here, do I actually like this job and I repressed that. Then after a while, I was actually hating what I was doing and I worried that if you think of yourself as a brand, you’re not really thinking of yourself as a human being who changes and who has different opinions at different times and that’s why I personally don’t think of myself like that.
Melissa Murdoch
Really interesting take on it, Emma, thank you and over to you Max, what do you think?
Max Chase
I wouldn’t consider myself a brand, I think, or having a brand. A big part of that is some of it is time, some of it is pressure and some of it is that I don’t entirely know necessarily what I stand for in the way of what I want to present to people, and I think that’s a big part of it. Emma touched on it, you also should give yourself a little bit of time to evolve into what you feel you can offer, what you feel you can give, what you want to give to people because that’s the other thing. I could brand myself as one thing but then suddenly that’s the only thing that people know me for and if I decide that I want to do something completely different, it’s going to be quite difficult to extricate myself from that. Saying that, people who do have a brand for themselves, it’s a really impressive thing. For some people, it suits really well, and some people have a real, confident, clear vision of what they want to do, and they can start building that up as soon as they have that vision. It suits people differently. It’s not that I think there’s anything wrong with having a brand or anchoring yourself in that, but I also think it can be good to give yourself time to work out what you might want that to be and what you want that to look like and I think it’s okay not to have one straightaway.
Melissa Murdoch
That’s a really interesting point you’ve had. I did get pigeonholed because after my theatre company, I did my first full time job in my late twenties at the Roundhouse, and I did Youth Operations while looking after the business side of the youth programme. And whilst I was in the role, I redesigned the evaluation strategy for the entirety of the Roundhouse and ended up getting sent around presenting it at different conferences, so I ended up becoming the data queen. How did I become this person that knew everything about evaluation? I didn’t want to be that, this was a stepping-stone. This was something that was my first full time job and yes, it’s really interesting that I can see that pigeonholing thing. However, if I think about myself now, it is helpful having a brand in the entrepreneurship world because I finally found, I suppose, a real synergy in my whole career, what I do with my podcast, and what I do with this, so I can really see both of these, and the key thing is seeing it as a moving brand and not getting too wedded down for it because it can absolutely be helpful. Jolie, last point on that, because I waffled on, I’m sorry, I got too intrigued by what Max and Emma was saying. Jolie, do you consider yourself a brand?
Jolie Hockings
Because I know we’re short on time. I don’t know, it depends on how you define brand. In some senses, I’ve been getting to think of myself more so. I mean, it’s how you want to be represented and what you want to be represented for. I think in this age that we’re living in, there is this real brand culture, especially with social media, in particular, where people are selling themselves quite often, even if it’s self-promotion. I think that as I’m getting older, I am more establishing my values and what I stand for, and what I want to be known for in my career. I wouldn’t say it’s something that’s defined, it’s something that will be quite organic.
Melissa Murdoch
Thank you so much, everyone. Open to you, or while you’re here, you’ve got these three amazing, different areas of the creative industries. Do you have any questions for them? I’m going to see if anyone had written any. I know that Valeria has written something. If anyone’s got any questions, let me read this one, actually, Naomi’s been speaking to her, that’s fine. Anyone else got any questions for us?
Let’s start with Anonymous attendee, ‘I’m a scientist studying English Literature and Creative Writing at the OU and I’ve always had an ambition to try my hand at writing. How would you say starting writers can sell their product, or any advice on how to enter the industry?’ I’m going to give that to you, Emma.
Emma Yap
Okay, first of all, I wouldn’t frame it in terms of ‘sell your product’. You need to think of writing as a craft that you’ve developed over a long time, I would say the first thing to do is to write because one of the wonderful things about writing is that you don’t need any resources to write you can write by yourself. There’s a wonderful podcast called Scriptnotes, which is hosted by these two A-List writers, and they talk about writing, talk about the dilemmas of writing. You may find it difficult at first, it may not be very good at first because most people don’t write very good scripts as their first script. I’d see whether there’s a local theatre company that can give you some advice and that you can work with, and I would focus, don’t think about selling your script at this point, just think about getting really good at the writing and honing your craft, and how you can get really good at writing. Look at TV shows or films that you really like and get the scripts for them, analyse how they fit together, and learn from those people. Think of it as an apprenticeship in a way where you’re learning from the great writers who you admire.
Melissa Murdoch
Great, thank you so much, Emma. I’m going to move on to Cian, I got that I remembered. Cian said, ‘What should be my absolute biggest priority?’ Oh, big pressure for the panel here. ‘I’m the max grade for college. And although I’m always creating a portfolio, what should I focus the most on? I work closely with my tutors, and I’m now looking at being linked up with some of their connections as a result. However, personally to freelance, what do I need to focus on and what is the most effective method to focus and improve on?’ What do you study, what is your art, Cian? Graphic Design student, does anyone want to take this?
Jolie Hockings
What’s really important is that you’re busy creating work and really mastering your craft, that’s one thing, besides monetising, it’s really important to keep that going. In regard to getting work out there what you could do is reach out to publications, or magazines, or places where they use graphic designers. Or reaching out to other graphic designers who maybe – is that what you’re doing graphic design?
Max Chase
I think it was graphic design.
Melissa Murdoch
It was graphic design. Yes.
Jolie Hocking
You’re building the network. You’re maybe asking advice from them specifically and lots of places have a website where they publish a lot of articles around graphic designers and who’s making waves at the moment and things like that. My advice would be to put your finger on the pulse with what the scene’s like at the moment, and maybe where you could slot into that. My main thing would be to keep going with your own creative practice. It’s really important to keep that strong.
Melissa Murdoch
Great, thank you. And I’m going to whiz on. Valeria says ‘How important and relevant can qualifications courses and trainings be to cover a specific role? For example, I’m interested in SCA and educational roles within institutions, would training on education roles within credible organisations help? I’m going to give this one to you Jolie.
Jolie Hockings
Anything’s relevant if you make it relevant. For instance, I only did one module at university that was around education practices, practical practices within photography, but I really drew on that and I did a lot of research around it. Then I found strands through that so I would say yes, it is relevant, but you wouldn’t necessarily have to. I think it could be really helpful. Yes, I would encourage it if that’s an option for you, if that’s a tangible option then yes.
Melissa Murdoch
Thank you. I’m going to try and fit in a few more quickly. Olivia says ‘I’m a second-year art student at Lancaster University. I feel there’s often pressure that if you want to do well you have to move to the big city.’ And I’m going to answer this one because I’m going to advise you to check out Amelia Ideh, I’m going to put this in there. So, Amelia Ideh is amazing. She works as a marketing freelancer for huge organisations in the creative industries and she lives in Barcelona. She talks amazingly on why you don’t need to live in London, you can use your time well. For instance, if you say I’m going to go to London, once a month for two days, you could get all your shows or your meetings and everything done in that time. Us people who live in London, we don’t use it that effectively. So, check out Amelia Ideh, I put it in the chat. She writes on this too.
Let’s see if we can find last question. I’m going to get one more in. Andrew Duggan, ‘I applied for the National Youth Film Academy at a time when my mental health wasn’t in the best place. In the interview, I was told that I came across as disinterested and lacking in passion and it knocked my confidence even more than it was. Do you think that I’ve ruined my chances with this particular institution? Or do you think that it may be working back in touch once I’m in a better place?’ Yes, I do think that, does anyone want to take that? Maybe you, Emma?
Emma Yap
It’s definitely worth getting back in touch when you’re in a better place. I definitely wouldn’t worry, I don’t think that if you perform badly in an interview that means that you can’t go back to a particular institution at all. I mean, also, I’m not familiar with the National Youth Film Academy but I imagine that there are other institutions that do things that are similar to what you’re looking for. Even if you try again there and it doesn’t work out, I’m sure there are other places that you could look at as well. So, I definitely wouldn’t worry about that at all.
Melissa Murdoch
Great. I’m sorry that we didn’t get to everyone’s questions, but you can always find us maybe on LinkedIn or something to ask us questions or contact Naomi, but that’s the end. I want to thank Max, Jolie, and Emma, so much for your insight. It’s been amazing to chat to you everyone that’s come today.